F18 Rules Fact Sheet: Illegal Spinnakers

As minutes are not still published I guess is time to go to the details on my recent posts.

Timeline
2010:
– Backes and Jarlegan won at Erquy with main sail of two cloths and psa patch
– I’m told that SI sails was warned that those sails were illegal on those two items above.
– No protest was issued at Erquy

2011 Worlds
– Accusations on Carbon were issued one day before the event at the WC meeting.
– In the middle of the event a request for info was filled on SI sails. That request ended on an official protest regarding the use of cloth not on the approved list. PSA is a polyester sticky cloth similar to window material that was used on the corners of the sails as reinforcement.
More details here:catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2011/08/f18-info-on-si-sails-issue.html

As a firecback Udin reviewed the rules and found out that all spis were illegal:
April 2010 Published Rules and valid at the 2011 Worlds:
—-

G.5.2 CONSTRUCTION
(a) The construction shall be: soft sail, single ply sail.
(b) Primary and secondary reinforcement is permitted at the sail corners
and the recovery points, and have to comply with the Sailcloth Appendix.

—–
You go to the Sailcloth Appendix (at the end of the Rules Doc link above) and you will find this text:

—–
Spinnaker Reinforcements
Any sail cloth on the spinnaker list, according to ERS.

—–
In short in the Spinnaker cloth list there is no Dacron to be found.
Dacron is a must for making spinnakers work or not breaking apart, and is used as standard reinforcement by all builders.

Previous rules had the following text: “any woven polyester“.for reinforcements.

So as all spinnakers on the Class are made with Dacron reinforcement all spis were illegal on hard written rules at 2011 Worlds. By error, oblivion or whichever reason you may want to assign.

This is a fact confirmed by last 26 Nov minutes:
—–

• Class rules clarification (under article A.8) :
Add in spinnaker reinforcement cloth list the wording dropped
any woven polyester”.
Clarification Passed unanimously with immediate action.

—-
So now all Spins are legal again.
Is important to note again that  “any woven polyester” was found in previous rules but not on April 2010 rules valid at the 2011 Worlds.

So you will read now several excuses and positions, but the fact and reality is only one:
All spins were illegal and a ‘clarification’ was issued to revert that situation. 

What was my concern and others on this point?:
If you kill by the rules you die by the rules, If someone would have protest all spins at the 2011 Worlds the entire fleet would have been banned from the event.
Basically the Class rightly banned A (si sails) for having cloth not on the list but not B (all spinnakers made with reinforcement cloth not on the list)

These series of facts are to show and inform the sailors NOT specific rule points, that as I proved these days are right now quite irrelevant like the two cloth restriction, but how the class is managing the rules making procedures,
publications and further amendments, clarifications, patches etc following a path of continuous mess that will be impossible to manage int he future. Reacting  to which ever loophole a builder can use.
How come we can have a published rule with all spis being illegal? 
I already proposed an internal Challenging Procedure for future rules/clarifications/amendments.

More patches and specific rules will lead to more loopholes , more clarifications and the path for more
issues like the ones that occurred at past Worlds.

The Class needs to calm down and review current rules and adapt them for the next 2 years at least….?
.Next:  Two Cloths issue.

11 Responses

  1. Franck says:

    Hi Martin,

    Trying to follow you, jumpin again from comments to another post.

    You did a long post for not a big deal, because:

    -first nobody, at any moment in the WC and no F18 sailors, want all spis illegal.

    -second as you noticed, no protest.

    -third: the has already WC fixed that.

    If I read well you want to burn the house because a little water leak was fixed ?

  2. Anonymous says:

    Do you think you are the center of the World? How about you thanking me for taking care of your own investments on past boats?

    These posts has nothing to do with replying your commments.
    These posts are to inform the sailors on details.

    Best regards.
    Martin

  3. Franck says:

    I do not see any reply of my previous comments, no worry.

    So sorry to repeat and disturb you, my comments also here to complete informations of sailors.

    You can believe that taking care of investments of F18 sailors are also a concern for other F18 representatives.

  4. Anonymous says:

    You accused me on the WC and here on hiding decisions and I proved you wrong.

    Now I want you to answer this simple question:

    Did you owned a Shockwave? And which was your position on the gral Ban of them?

    Martin

  5. Franck says:

    I ask myself why you were so upset of the publication of WC decisions ?

    I do answer, your personnal question, you didn't answer mine 😉

  6. Concerned F18 sailor says:

    hello Franck

    how about answers to question about owning shockwave then wanting to ban it after you sell?????

    nice guy!

  7. Franck says:

    Please anonymous and so not concerned just read you can find, one or two post up.

    The personnal way you use show that you have no more argumentation. Thank you for this information

    Just stay hidden 😉

  8. Martin says:

    Good point Franck, didn´t thought on that as I was the founder of the local class with my own built boat as an amateur project and Rep for Arg since day 1 and before any Cat bussines or blog/Ad.

    I'm wide in the Open.

    So maybe 4 WC representatives (without much investigation and on memory) will need to resign on your proposal right now.

    I will included it on my doc, right now no constitutional impediment, you know what to do right?

    Send a letter to your NA representative so you can change the constitution.

    I will support it, and will resign accordingly.

    In the meantime try not get this class in more rules mess than we are now. Not much to ask I think.

    Full responsability is assigned to those not complying with the class current rules and constitution, inside and outside of the racing course.

    Try to not end banning the entire fleet, the cartoon is a good example of what is going on the class right now.

    And tell your friend/sailor, his is welcome, for me taking care of his investment on the class.

  9. Franck says:

    Martin,

    There is no particular mess except the tempest in a glass of water you attempt to arise.

    Most of the difficulties (daggerboard, paint, spis, mainsail) are fixed, you can try to create others with ultra formal analysis.

    Indeed that is waste of time and energy. We should work together in a positive way.

    More important are not men but idea and action.

    Best regards

    Franck

  10. Martin says:

    Franck

    What you still don´t get it, I've been working on this post Balaton, day 1. It is not a sudden upset.

    On the same arguments with the Gral Sec and President. I can forward you those mails or you can ask them to our Gral Sec.

    This is not new, I have more than 50 mails with the same text published here with warnings on possible outcomes etc, etc.

    You don´t like being criticized, and you sent me a personal mail questioning who I was to criticize the class, remember?

    You took my class concerns personally in the first place.

    Is clear we all want the best for the class, already told you that.

    I don´t like being contributing as I always did and I'm doing with the foils WP and to any request or critic, get the phrase "WC decisions are binding, change the constitution" (If you can gather 2/3 of course)

    Having 4 countries the possiblity to rule the class by themselves is not fair also.

    I will propose to go back to previous system.

    I will like also to propose another constitutional change:
    Having your own president of French Assoc being Gral Sec at the same time is not the best scenario, don´t you agree?

    You forced all this to the Wide Open from the WC, and information is a double edge sword.

    On your second accusation (first was hiding info) on pennys, I've just counted 10 reps (current or past) that work/worked in the F18 business. Including a High and respected contributor, may ¿I say legend, of the IF18CA.

    All personal concerns replied then, we can continue with the open and cordial discussion on what is best for the class.

    At least here I get some feedback beyond "The WC decisions are final and binding"

    You are providing more feedback here than on the WC, so it is appreciated for all to see.

    Best regards,
    Martin

  11. Franck says:

    Martin,

    My last comment, it was an interesting experience, thank you.

    I do agree we have to leave personnal matter on the side and respect each other, please pardon me if I don't.

    So to resume main points in my opinion:

    -F18 World Coucil is not the place for people having money business in F18. Because WC representative are elected mostly by paying sailor. The merchant cannot rule the class. That's why the Technical Committee exists. Most of the time TC advices are wellcome, heard and introduced in the WC decision.
    No opposition, working together.

    -One french members (or ita, or ned, or ger, and so on), is as important as one members from another country.
    Not more but not less. No way to move there.

    – I share with you that the IF18CA has to move and fix issues till 2010 events (long list: spis, illegal 2 cloth mainsail, limit length daggerboard, illegal corecell, illegal paint). Moving doesn't mean breaking all. In the same time sailors should have fun on the water. For me it's ok at 95%. Ok improvement could be done.
    We cannot lost our time in wording, just straight to what we want.
    Clarification was important, after that if anybody want to make an amendment (paint seems to be important, so have a democratic tour), go for it..

    -SI customers should have the same treatment than Shockwave customers to preserve their investment.

    -Last WC 10 nations representative present or voting on the agenda. representing 74% of the worldwide members and 70% of the vote. Almost decisions made unanimously after long talk. One regret that far away representative do not share direct and live their opinion. You did it by the mail way.
    It's hard to hear that decisions were not according our rules.
    I do not think that affirmation is correct.
    WC, Sec gen did an outstanding work.

    -Next big move: certificate of compliance with money back insurance in order to protect the customers.

    Just moving for our class.
    Très cordialement.

    Franck Tiffon
    trésorier association française F18
    first F18 in 1994.
    sailing a Capricorn.