M32 Miami Test Tour: February 1-15th, 2013

HobieBlair1 says:

Where do we sign up to crew on these bad boys?? I'm in!

Peter S says:

The designers of the AC45 and AC72 did not want a boat that appeared too radical and leave the jib off completly. Plus in light airs it gives options for different jibs. USA 17 dropped the jib once it got up to speed. The C class and A Class boats proved long ago that a single main is the best way to use fixed sail area.

Anonymous says:

Completely outdated design. Not even wavepiercing… ;o)

Anonymous says:

ever tacked a cat without a jib ?
its f*cking slow….
when matchracing you want a jib to be able to back it, to enhance tacking, not for speed

udinidesign says:

This boat is a pure non sense in terms of performance, the only assets might be to have a slightly more simple and cheaper boat.

A Class and C Class have no jib because the sail area is limited to a pretty small surface, especially down wind where the boats are underpowered.

These rules were written in order to have cat-boat rig and clearly without the intension to have head sail.

C class would be a lot faster with with a jib and a geenaker (especially down wind) if the rules were updated to the modern world. A Class and C Class are pretty slow down wind.

Rumors are that even with these rules not in favour of having a jib, Michel Desjoyaux (Mer Agitée) is testing a C class with a with a jib in order to improve the ability in the maneuvers (starts, tacks…) and the stability in the choppy conditions.

Let's have a look about the real facts, not any AC72 or even Oracle 90 has never raced without a jib !

The Maström 32 has been designed out of one's depth old man who still believe in his old outdated theories…

Once again facts are there, not any Maström A class has won any major championship for a ages.The Maström 32 is clearly slower than SL 33 and probably the new GC32…

So please do not tell us that a cat boat rig is faster than a rig with a jib if you do not have a very small limited area of sails.

It is a lie and I don't how you can still try to convince people it is…

Kåre L says:

Dear Udindesign

1: A Class and C Class have no jib because the sail area is limited to a pretty small surface, especially down wind where the boats are underpowered.

??? A jib + main sail can actually generate more lift per sqm than main sail alone but with the disadvantage of more drag/lift. So in theory jibs should be most competitive when you have a limited sail area and still no A- or C- class boats are using a jib anymore.

2: These rules were written in order to have cat-boat rig and clearly without the intension to have head sail.

??? Is nothing in the rules that is written with the intention to promote cat rig. In the beginning a lot of both A- and C-class catamarans where sailing with jibs but the where to slow.

3: C class would be a lot faster with with a jib and a geenaker (especially down wind) if the rules were updated to the modern world. A Class and C Class are pretty slow down wind.

Yes A- and C- class cat would be faster downwind if they had a gennaker that’s why the M32 has a Code 0 for the downwind speed.

4: Rumors are that even with these rules not in favour of having a jib, Michel Desjoyaux (Mer Agitée) is testing a C class with a with a jib in order to improve the ability in the maneuvers (starts, tacks…) and the stability in the choppy conditions.

There have been many A- and C-class catamarans with jibs if you look back in the history but they haven’t been fast enough.

5: Let's have a look about the real facts, not any AC72 or even Oracle 90 has never raced without a jib !

Sorry to tell you that Oracle did sail part of the first race without the jib and that’s when they seemed to have had the most speed advantage upwind against Alinghi.
Quote from ISAF news https://www.sailing.org/news/8617.php
“USA showed superior speed and height through much of the upwind leg, their edge to windward appearing to be greatest when they sailed 'wing only' with no jib but just the giant solid wing mainsail, but it was on the long downwind leg that USA were able to extend most over the catamaran.”

6: The Maström 32 has been designed out of one's depth old man who still believe in his old outdated theories…

I’m sorry to tell you I’m the designer together with Göran and I’m 44.

7: Once again facts are there, not any Maström A class has won any major championship for a ages.The Maström 32 is clearly slower than SL 33 and probably the new GC32…

There has not been many Marström A class out racing but still the Marstrom M5 finished 3:rd in the worlds 2009 and European championship 2009 even do there were only two M5 participating.
We have raced against the SL33 and the M2 fleets in a several lake races in Europe. These pure lake racers with almost twice the sail area are faster when the wind is below 7 knots but not when it’s blowing above that and when the wind blows more than about 12knots we seem to be faster. We have not been able to sail against them in costal races simply because they only sail Lake races. Remember that the M32 is not designed to be a lake racer where 80% of the time the wind speed is below 6knots.

8: So please do not tell us that a cat boat rig is faster than a rig with a jib if you do not have a very small limited area of sails.

???????

9: It is a lie and I don't how you can still try to convince people it is…

??????

Best Regards
Kåre Ljung
Head of Design
Marstrom Composite AB

Peter S says:

Jamie… You need to ask the AC rule makers why they included jibs. Just because things are done on the yachting world does not make them correct. There is much historical & theoretical evidence to show that jibs are slow. There are always many ways to make all of our boats go faster but we are all limited by the boar rules, physics and our imaginations. Peter s

Peter S says:

Hi Jamie – Although there is no prescriptive rule stating that "there must be a jib" the rules are written defining the jibs and how they can be attached to the boat and where they have to be attached. Plus the same for the wing. ie the Wing step has various measurements to comply with which means if you only used a wing the boat would not balance. So a jib has to be used to acheive a balanced boat. Unfortunatly the faster a boat goes the slower it goes (if that makes sense) because of the jib. I'll stop this here as I and lots of others have said it all before. I'd also like to say that the rules were designed to inhibit foiling. But smart people have been able to get around these hurdles and make foiling AC72's. They could have prescribed that there was to be no foiling like say in the A class rules, but the rule makers and the designers did not envision foiling 72 ft cats at the time. I was in a technical AC meeting in Auckland early on and most teams including NZ where talking about 2 or 3 tonne lift not 100%+ lift. So imagination and smartness have gotten around that rule problem. The rule makers try and stay away from prescriptive rules in as many areas as possible on AC boat configuration. This is because if they get too prescriptive it becomes a "one design" class and the AC is about a design contest as well as a sailing contest. Cheers Peter S

udinidesign says:

This discussion will never ends,

In conclusion all the AC teams are not as clever as the Marstrom guys, they just need to drop off their jib to go faster, simple !

The M32 is the fastest boat around, end of the discussion.

Anonymous says:

30 ft sailing: It seams like Marström with some great effort and entusiasm from sponsors and great sailors will be getting at least 1 maybe 2 cool sailing series (Newport and Sweden) with their boats 2013. That is really fantastic, well done guys.

Jib: If I understand things right you could on BOR90, after start, at full speed, take down the jib to get a little more hight or speed out of the boat in case of flat water. There is a long way between that and simply making a boat without a jib. As most of us sailors know, we use the jib in pre start, balancing the boat, making the boat versatile for different conditions, accelerating plus increasing the upwash on the downwind.

Im sure you will get some very good racing without a jib with the M32 but you would without a doubt get a much better acceptance for your boat with a jib and a few other features that we buyers for the moment consider to be fast (regardless of that being the case or not).

Wish you all the best with your racing series,
Gustaf Dyrssen

Anonymous says:

Why is a M20 going faster when you add a jib? And it balances good too? It was designed for no jib but it's better when you out a jib on

Peter Schwarzel says:

Hi Anon – This is a difficult space to tackle technical discussion but here goes. Plus there are counter arguments to what I'm about to say but overall if you research the matter you will find the truth. 1) A jib is a triangular planform which is a very inefficient shape for a foil, therefore you cannot get the full drive possible from a better planform shape eg elliptical 2) thin foils such as sails have a poor leading edge shape and therefore again cannot acheive their potential relative to their area. So by eliminating the jib leading edge and combining the sails into a main you eliminate the leading edge losses of the jib. Similiarly by combining the jib into the main you gain the "losses" of the jib top, bottom and trailing edge. ie you gain by removing the considerable losses the jib has. Another issue is that the faster you go the tighter the jib has to be and this means that the jibs leading edge cannot be pointed into the correct position to acheive correct flow. A foils leading edge has to be a large radius (elliptical is more accurate) to allow the correct flow around the leading edge.Like a rudder section. (look up stagnation points) The jib is actually a "slat" and is used to improve the flow around the mast and the main. The jib improves the mains performance at the loss of its own performance. Sail trim is about compromising many things to get the best output of the sails. A jib/main combination has a max lift coefficient of around 1.8 whereas a wing starts at 2.5 and goes through to 4.0 so soft sails have limitations that we live with. Get reading, theres lots of information on this out there. And remember we are talking about equal area planforms, of course if you increase a boats sail area and its relativley efficient then it will potentially have more drive. Peter S

Peter S says:

I imagine by a drag race you mean that there were no tacking duels. The two boats were quite different therefore one would be faster than the other and no duels would be needed. ie the tri was way faster then Alingi, it was breathtakingly fast!! The AC45 rules are a one design rule so its fruitless to consider them without a jib. No jib is simpler to sail and less strings to organise and trim. Light air requires sail area so a spinnaker is in order if allowed. But if no spinnaker than a single sail is better than two as one is a more efficient use of the fixed sail area. But downwind sails are different shapes to upwind sails so a compromise has to be figured out. A really good single main would be 1.8 to 2.0 if it had a good large rotating wing mast.Cheers Peter S

CSN says:

Peter there are countless of theoretical correct concepts that in real life don´t work as in intended in paper.
Here in CSN we have several examples in the past.

It is quite simple to backup all your tech data, one of the AC72 in the LV should be using no jib then?
Also the real life experience of the 18 High Techs formula boats without jibs failing against heavier F18s can be as good example.

They used a higher mast with a jibless rig, and the feedback I have from the class sailors is that they couldn´t perform in chop due to the high pitch motion generated by a taller mast.

In the F18 Coen de Koning tried a no jib conf while racing, but with 25knots, they were somehow Ok until of course the wind dropped.

So beyond theory of the jib foil aspect, other aspects influencing this setup.

Regarding the M32 they will race OD, so no issue, but as I said , I would like a racing matchup against the other 30' footers so we can end discussions. A Formula 30' Class can be organized.

And on the highest level of Racing, at the moment I still trust the judgement of they guys on the ACup design teams.

Macca says:

Perhaps, against my better judgement, I should make a comment due to the fact that I believe I am one of the very few (in fact, I think the only person in the world) to sail the Marstrom M32, SL33 and GC32.

I can tell you without any doubt that from a racing sailors perspective it is highly preferable to have a jib, the advantages in practice far outweigh any theoretical jibless advantages.

Simply put:- you can steer a boat easier and more consistently with a jib, it is much better on a reach to have a jib, the boat is markedly quicker on tis point of sail.

The pre start is much more efficient with a jib, you can manoeuvre with confidence and accelerate out of tacks a lot quicker with a jib.

From a design point of view it makes little sense to not utilise available sail area, there is a lot of space in between the forestay and the mast, the jib seems to fit that space really well! if the opportunity is there then you should use it in my opinion. I am clearly not alone, all the AC72's are utilising that space and I can guarantee you that they are not doing that for fun, the guys I speak directly to in the teams are all firmly of the opinion that a Jib is not only desirable, but totally necessary if the rules governing the class allow it.

I can also be very confident in stating that the M20 was a much better boat with a Jib added to it, Herbie and I sailed a lot with that boat and never once did we think the jibless version was in any way quicker on any point of sail in any conditions. Again, its just logical to utilise the space available to fit a jib.

I want to be clear that I am not in any way knocking Marstrom, the M32 or anything they build, I have a great amount of respect for those guys and they build really nice stuff. We decided not to go down that path because we wanted a race boat, and as such we needed a boat with a jib. I can see that the simple approach appeals to some, but i feel that a more complete package is required to ensure continued interest in a class.